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The Dominion vs. the Borg

Trekkie63

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POSTS: 15

Report this Jun. 21 2004, 1:34 am

If the Dominion and the Borg got into a war, who would win (and what advantage[s] might the victorious party have in winning)?

And would the Federation take sides??

Gold_53

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POSTS: 9036

Report this Jun. 21 2004, 1:55 am

The Borg would win, and here is why I believe so:

1. The Changelings/Founders could not infiltrate the Borg and imperonate them. As they would be immediately noticed (if they were a threat) because they would not be part of the collective.

2. The Dominion while powerful with powerful weapons and ships has never given any indication that their weapons and technology could not be adapted too.

3. While the Jem'Hadar are formidable soldiers they do not have the strength of a Borg drone. Borg drones have been shown to have nearly comparable strength with Androids like Data. While the Jem'Hadar's strength is more comparable to Klingons, and if watch TNG then you know how easily Data dispatched Worf on several occassions. In addition, it's tough to fight an enemy that only needs one touch and they could assimilate you. Even if the Jem'Hadar are better warriors for them not to be touched is impossible.

3. It takes nearly a fleet of Federation ships to destroy (1) cube. Even if the Dominion attacked with 1000's of ships and only encountered 100's of cubes they would be overwhelmed.

4. The Jem'Hadar's Kamikaze attacks would have a much less significant effect on the Borg. Whereas the Jem'Hadar may be able to bring down a Galaxy class starship with this type of attack, a Borg cube is much much bigger and more suited to surviving such attacks and then repairing the damage during battle.

There would be little advantages the Borg would gain from Assimilating the Dominion. Since the Jem'Hadar & Vorta would be considered "Imperfect" to the Borg because they are clones and 1 species is addicted to drugs to stay alive it's actually unlikely that the Borg would even consider them suited for assimilation. Their technology is another matter entirely, I'm sure they would assimilate their technology. I'm also sure the Borg would "attempt" to assimilate the Founders whether this is even possible is unknown, but if it is possible then the Borg would gain a significant advantage.

In all likelihood if this battle were to ever take place it would have to be due to the Dominion seeking out the Borg, as the Borg would gain little from such a conflict and it would be unlikely that they would even feel the Dominion worth assimilating. :cool:

AquamonkeyEG

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POSTS: 4915

Report this Jun. 21 2004, 2:03 am

well said, i'm with ya 100%. BORG CRUSH PESKY DOMINION!! ROOOAAAARRRRR!!! ...i mean BEEEEPPPP!!! (or the mechanical whir noise that they make).  :D  :D

DS9TREK

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Report this Jun. 21 2004, 7:57 am

If the Federation can beat the Borg then the Dominion can too. And the Dominion does have superior techology to the Federation.

AquamonkeyEG

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Report this Jun. 21 2004, 8:33 am

the federation only defeat the borg with knowledge and technology from the future "endgame". and destroying a couple cubes (+1 sphere with it's shields down) doesn't count as defeating the borg especially when ur getting stomped. they got lucky because of picard's connection to the borg in both instances. also doesn't count when lore was controling them either because that was just against lore (+ a few drones) and not the borg collective.

if the borg were serious about attacking earth, like they were about 8472 the federation would be gone with the snap of the queen's fingers. the 1st time they "attacked" the federation, they were just investigating the Enterprise anomaly that magically appeared and disappeared in front of them. that second time i dont know wat the f*ck they were thinking, it was just some excuse to make a movie (i love FC don't get me wrong, but the borg shoulda sent more than 1 cube by any logical sense)

the borg sent more than 1 cube against that stupid little planet with weaker defenses than the federation in "dark frontier"

Aemilianus

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Report this Jun. 21 2004, 10:39 am

Please look at a simmilar topic on the DS9 Board for a very lenghty discussion about the same question.

Gold_53

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POSTS: 9036

Report this Jun. 21 2004, 12:27 pm

Quote (DS9TREK @ June 21 2004, 4:57 am)
If the Federation can beat the Borg then the Dominion can too. And the Dominion does have superior techology to the Federation.

The Federation didn't beat the Borg they destroyed a couple of ships.

1. In "The Best Of Both Worlds" after retaking Picard/Lucutus they discover a way to make the drones aboard (1) Borg cube to go to sleep. They didn't even destroy the cube.

2. In "ST: First Contact" the Federation fleet was only able to destroy the (1) cube again because of knowledge Picard had of their weaknesses.

3. In the various Voyager episodes where they encoutered the Borg they only Survived due to the intimate knowledge that 7 of 9 had about the Borg. Why? Because she was a Borg lol.

4. In "Endgame" they were only able to defeat the Borg with technology from the future. Any Star Trek species could be defeated with technology from the future. Remember hindsight is 20/20 I'm pretty sure that if we could go back in time now we would now be able to win the War in Vietnam pretty easily considering our knowledge and future technology.

The Dominion on the other hand would have none of these advantages. No Lucutus, No Picard, No 7 of 9, and No future technology. In addition, if both species were actually at war with each other the Dominion would have to worry about far more than a few cubes and sphere they would have to deal with an entire Armada of cubes. The Dominion would not stand a chance, if the Federation can destroy Dominion ships and kill their soldiers then the Borg would annihilate them. :bored:

AquamonkeyEG

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Report this Jun. 21 2004, 12:35 pm

Quote
I'm pretty sure that if we could go back in time now we would now be able to win the War in Vietnam pretty easily considering our knowledge and future technology.


yea we'd just sit comfortably in our ships and launch missiles into Vietnam

Vold

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Report this Jun. 21 2004, 5:50 pm

Quote (gold53 @ June 21 2004, 9:27 am)
Quote (DS9TREK @ June 21 2004, 4:57 am)
If the Federation can beat the Borg then the Dominion can too. And the Dominion does have superior techology to the Federation.

The Federation didn't beat the Borg they destroyed a couple of ships.

1. In "The Best Of Both Worlds" after retaking Picard/Lucutus they discover a way to make the drones aboard (1) Borg cube to go to sleep. They didn't even destroy the cube.

2. In "ST: First Contact" the Federation fleet was only able to destroy the (1) cube again because of knowledge Picard had of their weaknesses.

3. In the various Voyager episodes where they encoutered the Borg they only Survived due to the intimate knowledge that 7 of 9 had about the Borg. Why? Because she was a Borg lol.

4. In "Endgame" they were only able to defeat the Borg with technology from the future. Any Star Trek species could be defeated with technology from the future. Remember hindsight is 20/20 I'm pretty sure that if we could go back in time now we would now be able to win the War in Vietnam pretty easily considering our knowledge and future technology.

The Dominion on the other hand would have none of these advantages. No Lucutus, No Picard, No 7 of 9,  and No future technology. In addition, if both species were actually at war with each other the Dominion would have to worry about far more than a few cubes and sphere they would have to deal with an entire Armada of cubes. The Dominion would not stand a chance, if the Federation can destroy Dominion ships and kill their soldiers then the Borg would annihilate them.  :bored:

To add to what Gold said,

Endgame's tech. may not be much effective anymore.

1. Transphasic Torpedoes
- i think the Borg learn how to prevent it from entering their hull already, because why didn't Voyager destroy the sphere chasing them?
They had to enter the Sphere then only shoot. This could mean the torps can't enter Borg vessels anymore, or at the moment.

2. Ablative Armour Generator
- The Borg found a weakness on the armour and is able to damage it faster then before.
- But it still proves as a good defense. :)
At least ships don't get slashed in few hits now.

AquamonkeyEG

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POSTS: 4915

Report this Jun. 22 2004, 1:31 am

the queen assimilated the tech from the admiral janeway. as that sphere was still able to "hear her thoughts" they got the tech specs and were able to adapt.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Jun. 22 2004, 4:47 am

Quote (gold53 @ June 20 2004, 10:55 pm)
The Borg would win, and here is why I believe so:

1. The Changelings/Founders could not infiltrate the Borg and imperonate them. As they would be immediately noticed (if they were a threat) because they would not be part of the collective.

2. The Dominion while powerful with powerful weapons and ships has never given any indication that their weapons and technology could not be adapted too.

3. While the Jem'Hadar are formidable soldiers they do not have the strength of a Borg drone. Borg drones have been shown to have nearly comparable strength with Androids like Data. While the Jem'Hadar's strength is more comparable to Klingons, and if watch TNG then you know how easily Data dispatched Worf on several occassions. In addition, it's tough to fight an enemy that only needs one touch and they could assimilate you. Even if the Jem'Hadar are better warriors for them not to be touched is impossible.

3. It takes nearly a fleet of Federation ships to destroy (1) cube. Even if the Dominion attacked with 1000's of ships and only encountered 100's of cubes they would be overwhelmed.

4. The Jem'Hadar's Kamikaze attacks would have a much less significant effect on the Borg. Whereas the Jem'Hadar may be able to bring down a Galaxy class starship with this type of attack, a Borg cube is much much bigger and more suited to surviving such attacks and then repairing the damage during battle.

There would be little advantages the Borg would gain from Assimilating the Dominion. Since the Jem'Hadar & Vorta would be considered "Imperfect" to the Borg because they are clones and 1 species is addicted to drugs to stay alive it's actually unlikely that the Borg would even consider them suited for assimilation. Their technology is another matter entirely, I'm sure they would assimilate their technology. I'm also sure the Borg would "attempt" to assimilate the Founders whether this is even possible is unknown, but if it is possible then the Borg would gain a significant advantage.

In all likelihood if this battle were to ever take place it would have to be due to the Dominion seeking out the Borg, as the Borg would gain little from such a conflict and it would be unlikely that they would even feel the Dominion worth assimilating. :cool:

1. not being able to infiltrate ? amazing in light that the borg trend to ignore armed starfleet personnel on board a cube, all the founder would have to do is find a way on board and keep his hands to him or her self until it was ready to inflict damage on the cube or to the borg collective.

2. since Phase Polorn Beam that the Dominion uses bypassed Federation shields, one would have to believe that Borg shields would also be ineffective. The Dominion donot use Nadion particles so the Borg would may not have a counter for this technology, just like they were unable to stop the Energy weapons of Species 8427.

3. As strong as Data? funny since data seem to have no problem trashing Drones as he did in "Descent" basically breaking the neck of a drone without any major effort.

In light of the fact that the Jem Hadar use blade weapon like Klingons and seem to be expert in hand to hand combat, the borg would be for surprise. We seen in First contact that Knives and other blade weapons that was wielded by worf was able to dispatch several drones without Worf being Assimulated.

While strong, Borg drone have the combat skill of a slug. A knife in the hands of a expert is more than a match.

4. The Borg seem to attack with only one cube at a time, on both occassion they launch but a single cube to assimulate the federation, even in the light that their first cube was defeated. A 100 Cube would have been more than a match for the Federation....

Also the Dominion has (had?) a much larger fleet than the federation, only the action of the Worm hole alien prevent this fleet from being used against the Federation.

5. We seen a borg cube destroyed in a collision with specie 8427 Bioship, which is basically a one man fighter. So it doubtful that they could survive a collision with Jem Hadar craft....

As it stand the Borg may have already encountered the Dominion and was beaten off, especially in the light the Dominion resources are much greater than the federation and they seem to have a better graps on tactics...

AquamonkeyEG

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POSTS: 4915

Report this Jun. 22 2004, 5:16 am

1. i agree that the founders could easily infiltrate a cube. y would they take on a humanoid form, they could easily "melt" into the bulkheads or deck plating.

2. this does not stop the borg from assimilating the tech and adapting to it. the reason they couldn't stop 8472's weapons is because they were unable to assimilate their bioships or "people"

3. if 1 were adept enough in hand to hand combat, taking on the borg drones with bladed weapons would be relatively easy. but that does not mean u can defeat the borg. the most decisive battles would be fought between ships, not hand to hand. the jem hadar might be able to save themselves from being assimilated, but that don't mean the borg couldn't just blast their ships to rubble.

4. the borg have millions of cubes, and its not the size of the fleet (i dont remember how many ships were destroyed in "best of both worlds") its the effectiveness and tactics. i didn't follow ds9 so i dont know the capabilities of the dominion fleet, but the federation has way more experience fighting the borg (especially after janeway). they are better equiped to combat the borg. if they had let picard help in FC the cube would've been destroyed in a matter of minutes.

5. we don't know anything about 8427 bioship technology or wat kind of power source it uses. the cube could've been already critically damaged by the shot they blocked from hitting voyager and on the verge of exploding when they collided with the bioship. the bioships are a lot bigger than a simple 1 man fighter, its more than 1/3 the size of voyager (i checked).

there is no info to back that up, its highly unlikely that they have crossed paths. the borg are in delta, the dominion in gamma. the borg only went after the federation due to Q's intervention (or alternatively to investigate the signal sent in STFC)

Gold_53

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Report this Jun. 22 2004, 6:00 am

Quote (lanceromega @ June 22 2004, 1:47 am)
1.  not being able to infiltrate ? amazing in light that the borg trend to ignore armed starfleet personnel on board a cube, all the founder would have to do is find a way on board and keep his hands to him or her self until it was ready to inflict damage on the cube or to the borg collective.

2. since Phase Polorn Beam that the Dominion uses bypassed Federation shields, one would have to believe that Borg shields would also be ineffective. The Dominion donot use Nadion particles so the Borg would may not have a counter for this technology, just like they were unable to stop the Energy weapons of Species 8427.

3. As strong as Data? funny since data seem to have no problem trashing Drones as he did in "Descent" basically breaking the neck of a drone without any major effort.

In light of the fact that the Jem Hadar use blade weapon like Klingons and seem to be expert in hand to hand combat, the borg would be for surprise.  We seen in First contact that Knives and other blade weapons that was wielded by worf was able to dispatch several drones without Worf being Assimulated.

While strong, Borg drone have the combat skill of a slug. A knife in the hands of a expert is more than a match.

4. The Borg seem to attack with only one cube at a time, on both occassion they launch but a single cube to assimulate the federation, even in the light that their first cube was defeated. A 100 Cube would have been more than a match for the Federation....

Also the Dominion has (had?) a much larger fleet than the federation, only the action of the Worm hole alien prevent this fleet from being used against the Federation.  

5. We seen a borg cube destroyed in a collision with specie 8427 Bioship, which is basically a one man fighter. So it doubtful that they could survive a collision with Jem Hadar craft....

As it stand the Borg may have already encountered the Dominion and was beaten off, especially in the light the Dominion resources are much greater than the federation and they seem to have a better graps on tactics...

1. Infiltration would gain nothing for the Dominion, unlike Federation ships the Borg don't have their shield frequencies labeled on panels in engineering. Even if a Changeling could plant an explosive powerful enough to destroy one cube, the Borg would not fall for the same tactic again they would adapt. Also Borg ships are autonomous no one system or section being destroyed or damaged would disable their cubes.

2. There is no evidence that the Borg could not adapt to a Phase Polaron Beam, in fact they may have already encountered it and adapted to it. If the Federation managed to adapt to it the Borg would adapt to it even more quickly. In addition, the Borg do not use shields remotely like Federations or any Alpha quadrant species.

3. I did not say as strong as Data I said nearly comparable strength. You brought up "Descent" but on the other hand Data didn't fair very well against the Borg in First Contact. Also the Borg are very strong as evidenced by one of them knocking Worf across the bridge with one arm, and Worf is more than comparable to the Jem'Hadar geez he killed 10 of them by himself. I will admit the Borg are not experts in hand to hand combat or even proficient but like I said all they need to do is touch you or get within arms reach to hit you with assimilation tubules. Then even if the drone is killed the nanites will do the rest.

4. As I said before the Borg would more than likely feel the Dominion is not worthy of assimilation. The borg will not assimilate clones or even worse drug addicted clones it does not further their goal of perfection. The Dominion would have to seek out the Borg and if they came into contact with a Borg territory in the Delta quadrant they would have to deal with more than just a couple of cubes. Even the Dominion's immense fleet of 10's of 1000s of ships would be minute in comparison to the Armada the Borg has amassed in the Delta quadrant. Maybe you should check out some of Voyager so you would see what I mean. I've seen all of DS9 and Voyager's episodes so I know how big both fleets are and the Dominions are pale in comparison.

5. A Borg cube was not destroyed in a collision with a species 8472 craft they were destroyed by an extra-dimensional weapon from fluidic space created by 8 species 8472 crafts combining their weapons to form an effect not much different than the Deathstars superlaser. Planet destroying in one shot and the same with the cubes. There is no technology that was demonstrated by the Dominion that was on par with this type of technology, and the Dominion don't have weapons from another dimension either. Lastly once again the Borg ships are massive in comparison to any Dominion, Romulan, Cardassian, Federation, or Klingon vessel. Even multiple collisions by a starships would not completely disable or destroy a Borg Cube as I said they are autonomous.

The bottomline is it took a fleet of Federation ships to destroy 1 Borg cube both times they attacked Earth. While it took a HUGE Dominion fleet to take on the combined fleets of the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans. If 1 cube can take out entire Federation fleets what do you think an Armada of cubes would be capable of?

I leave any further explainations and responses to your post to Vold as he much more knowledgeable about the Borg than I.  :cool:

ORG22

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Report this Jun. 22 2004, 2:42 pm

It is obvious to most of us that the Borg would assimilate the Dominion, without a main problem...

ramsesqu

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Report this Jun. 22 2004, 7:17 pm

federation can adapt dominion technology in just few days, the borg won't have much problem. dominion fire one shot and the borg will adapt immediatly. and when the federation fleet engaged the borg cube, the cube did not even use its phaser and torpedoes all it did was "tractor and cut".
think if the borg use their cube at ful compasity... dominion won't stand a chance.

and the founder made of cells ,too. no matter how special their cells are the nano probes won't have much problem changing their DNA

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