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refutation of entropy

Q1

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Report this Jun. 19 2003, 2:49 pm

Energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed.

QUBED

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 5:04 am

how does this refute entropy?

doctortobe

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 7:45 am

Energy and matter are never created or destroyed in the creation of entropy. You can always find where and when energy was absorbed or released from a reaction. Entropy isn’t an actual physical force, it is more of an observed trend.

Entropy has to do with the eventual breakdown of complex structures into more simple structures. A stone being ground into dust doesn’t just disappear, the molecules or atoms just are no longer connected to each other. The wind or water or whatever did the eroding provided the energy to overcome the bonding of the molecules.

Also, entropy can actually be lowered in a certain area as long as the entropy of the system (the universe) is increased. Take a human for example, we seem to stand in stark contrast with entropy with our masses of complex molecules, tissues, and organs. However, the food we digest, the waste we produce, and most especially the heat we give off is greater in randomness then the whole of our complexity.

Q1

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 8:37 am

Entropy states that everything loses its energy, or that energy is eventually lost. This isn’t the case because energy can never be lost, or transformed. That energy can’t be lost, only transformed, was what I was trying to say by saying that energy can’t be created or destroyed.

Q1

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 8:51 am

"Energy and matter are never created or destroyed in the creation of entropy. You can always find where and when energy was absorbed or released from a reaction. Entropy isn’t an actual physical force, it is more of an observed trend.

Entropy has to do with the eventual breakdown of complex structures into more simple structures. A stone being ground into dust doesn’t just disappear, the molecules or atoms just are no longer connected to each other. The wind or water or whatever did the eroding provided the energy to overcome the bonding of the molecules."

Some structures will be turned into simpler structures, but only for a limited amount of time until they’re rebuilt again into something else or perhaps even the same things. Since energy is constant and can’t be destroyed the destruction of structures is only one possibility.

doctortobe

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 9:39 am

The energy is only lost from the lifeform or whatever is going through the reaction. The energy is lost to the environment. The term lost refers to exothermic reactions not destruction.

As for smaller objects becoming large again, as I said with my example of the human body, a lot more chaos ensues from making something complex then the complexity itself. The only thing that does not exhibit entropy is a crystalline structure that is at absolute zero (aka the 3rd law of thermodynamics).

As for where the energy goes when it is released, it is pretty fuzzy in my mind right now but I think that there is a thing called Gibb’s free energy that accounts for all that. I’d have to crack open my Gen Chem textbook again to see about that.

Q1

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 12:36 pm

"Entropy has to do with the eventual breakdown of complex structures into more simple structures. A stone being ground into dust doesn’t just disappear, the molecules or atoms just are no longer connected to each other. The wind or water or whatever did the eroding provided the energy to overcome the bonding of the molecules."

The reason I used the term destruction is because it described how you were defining entropy. Your original definition of it is closer to how entropy is actually defined. The fact of the matter is that this whole idea of entropy is a confused idea that doesn’t make any sense, even from its own premisses, and automatically contradicts the law of conservation of energy which it says it acknowledges. It basically states that all structures will eventually breakdown by losing their energy, including the universe, and it labels this process entropy. The breakdown of a structure by the loss of its energy. And it categorizes the universe as one of these structures; but what it doesn’t understand, obviously, is that the universe itself is energy, not just a structure, and that eventhough a certain structure can breakdown and cease to exist its energy never goes out of existence but changes it structure and then turns itself into something else. Entropy just misunderstands the whole idea of energy and energy transformations.

Q1

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 12:46 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2135779.stm

hippietrek

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 3:48 pm

Hes right, you know

Q1

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Report this Jun. 20 2003, 4:01 pm

Who do you mean by he?

I’ve heard that they say entropy is real because heat can’t be transformed into anything else, and since heat is a energy transformation in some processes that energy portion of it that turns into heat is lost energy, since it can’t be ever used again.

doctortobe

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Report this Jun. 21 2003, 2:39 am

One thing you forget about entropy is that it doesn’t just apply to heat and loss of energy. Numbers of something can also be considered entropic. If a molecule absorbs enough energy to be split apart, looking at energy itself would make you think that entropy had decreased. However, the fact that the molecule is in two parts increases entropy. This is because the two parts can move around more randomly then the one. Another thing to note is that larger spaces mean larger entropy. An atom in a jar is less entropic then that of an atom in open air. The same could be said about the universe.

For an example, let’s say that after trillions of years, all matter in the universe was formed up into only Hydrogen atoms. For the purpose of this example, lets say that the conversion of matter into energy had completely stopped. There are a fixed number of atoms in the universe. Now, even in this unlikely case, entropy would still be increasing because of the expansion of the universe.

Even if you take my example to the next, more realistic level, that of there being no matter and only energy, the fact that the universe continues to expand increases entropy. This is because a constant amount of energy has a continually increasing area to exist in. This other example may very well be what eventually happens to our universe.

Q1

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Report this Jun. 21 2003, 10:56 am

This definition of entropy is only talking about the disorder property of it, which is in fact a component or effect of energy loss and not a separate, so where there’s disorder, according to entropy, there’s energy loss.

Here’s one problem with their definition. Where universal entropy increases local entropy decreases. Obviously that’s absurd because everywhere in the universe is a part of the universe so there can’t be local decreases of entropy is increasing in the universe because if entropy is increasing in the universe that means it’s increasing everywhere.

gul_Pip

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Report this Jun. 22 2003, 10:57 am

proove it, i mean proove it without just quoting things you don’t understand.

Q1

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Report this Jun. 22 2003, 1:02 pm

If you think I’m wrong, why don’t you prove it? Instead of pretending to know something which you have no clue about.

doctortobe

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Report this Jun. 22 2003, 3:06 pm

What you said about the local increases with universal decreases can be explained by my example of humans. Humans and all other forms of matter are in the universe but are also seperate from it. Just as a person is in a city but is not the city. Entropy is increasing everywhere, even with all of us. We are complex beings but the chaos and disorder we cause is greater then this complexity. So even though we (local) decrease entropy our waste (energy) and chaos is released into the universe and increases entropy.

As for the loss of energy for the universe, assuming that all matter will eventually be turned into energy according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and assuming that no new energy will be created according to the 1st, and also assuming that the universe will continue to expand, we can therefore conclude that the universe will become less energetic over time. Not only that, but this will also make the energy become more random by giving it more room to move in, even if it only moves in a straight line or however it decides to act.

To put this into an example, let’s say the universe and all its energy occupied 1 cubic light year. It then expanded to 100 cubic light years. There is now less of a concentration of energy in the universe then there was before, even though the amount of energy has stayed the same. It’s also more random as I explained above.

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